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From:  Marie Hoadley
At: 07.05.2003 00:00
Subject: Are communities capacitated to participate in the benefits of mining?

I'd like to start this discussion off with a brief comment. In terms of new legislation, the Mining Charter and many other documents and declarations, social plans are legal requirements for mining companies to get a licence (or convert old to new) and to operate. The social plan includes benefitting communities. Are communities in a position to take advantage of this legislation? What do they need to do so? What skills, what understandings? And what particular issues would they highlight as important to the community? In the end, the community, along with government, labour, mining companies and others, has to ensure that, when the mine closes, a sustainable community is in place that can survive without the mine.
From:  Marie Hoadley
At: 08.05.2003 00:00
Subject: Re: Are communities capacitated to participate in the benefits of mining?

Eugene - what I'm actually talking about here is not what the mine does, but what the community needs in order to participate in a sustainable way in mining development. What structures do they need? What skills? The second part of your posting seems to be approaching that, but I would be interested to hear how the funding is being used. Is it to build infrastructure, or to build capacity and develop skills which can be used during the mine life (in things such as outsourcing) and can also contribute to the continued well-being of the community after closure?
From:  Elize Hough
At: 07.05.2003 00:00
Subject: Rehab by the communities

In response to Eugene and Marie. The idea of getting communities involved in rehabilitation of closed mines have been tried and failed dismally at Kommagas. Granted, TransHex implemented it and we all know what a bad track record this company have. They are actually trying the same trick here in Hondeklip Bay at this very moment! In Kommagas, the community was offered a chance to re-work the old gravel dumps provided that they then do the rehab. TransHex, instead of rehabilitating the Kommagas mine, continue to offer it to contractors and thus manage not to have to submit a closure/rehab plan. Yes, the idea can work if the company involved supply the necessary equipment and skills training – but will that happen? Our dealings with TransHex have proved that it will not. The joke of the moment in Hondeklip Bay is that TransHex have submitted a closure plan (for their Hondeklip Bay mine) to DME. When we requested a copy of this plan (so that we can comment on it) we were told that it is only a “draft” and thus not a public document. What is going to happen should DME decide to approve this “draft”? I am imploring all DLISTERS to assist us with our "proper and aesthetical rehabilitation" campaign. Visit our Website at: http://home.intekom.com/honnehok/ and click on the link provided. Please tell TransHex what you think about the state of their mine in Hondeklip Bay (It really is terrible! Francois will bear me out on this) and enquire about the contents of their closure/rehabilitation document.
From:  Priscilla Magerman
At: 22.11.2003 00:00
Subject: Re: Rehab by the communities

I wasn't able to partake in discussion on dlist for a while and did that leave with hands tide?

i specifically want to through my opinion in this coference for a couple of reasons: 1. since it is of relevance to me and 2. it just makes me so mad when i see and hear the arrogance of mining companies. it is still totally unbelievable how they can do whatever the like and nothing happens. but i am sure that this topic has been discussed, argued and debated on.

today i am seeking assistance from all Dlisters over the world. transhex is currently busy with rehabilitation in Hondeklipbaai and we appreciate that, but we are more afraid that this is also just a pull-a-blanket-over-the-eyes thing. See there is no way at all that we can be sure that whatever they are doing is correct and the best they could do. Are there some things we can look to which will/can indicate that this is the correct rehab they using and that they are doing the best. For example, they are flattening all the man made hills, but what is suppose to happen to the holes? We are a bit uninformed where that is concerned so any assitance will be of help to us.

further more i'd like to congratulate all my friends in the Richtersveldt for their fighting spirit. You give us courage for ours.
From:  Anonymous
At: 06.01.2004 00:00
Subject: Re: Rehab by the communities

To all Dlisters

This is a comment in response to Pricilla Magerman’s input on Saturday 22 November 2003.

Ms Magerman raised a valid point, and I would like address her concern as follows:

Rehabilitation at Hondeklip Bay is done in accordance with the approved environmental management programme (EMP) and a closure plan, which is largely based on the requirements of the approved EMP. The EMP was approved in 1995, and the Closure Plan was submitted to DME in July 2002.

The EMP report is a document required by the Department of Minerals and Energy (DME), before a mining authorisation can be issued. All this is done to fulfil the requirements of the Minerals Act (No 50 of 1991). The DME has to ensure that other regulatory authorities with an interest in the environment accept the EMP before it is approved. These authorities include the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry (DWAF); Department of Environment Affairs and Tourism (DEAT) and/or the provincial environmental authority; and the Department of Agriculture and/or the provincial agricultural authority. The EMP therefore includes the “environmental conditions of authorisation of the development/operation…”.

As you are aware, mining in Hondeklip Bay has been in existence for the past 30 years. Before 1992 there there was no legal requirement for the EMP described above, although a rather elementary rehabilitation plan was in existence. Nevertheless, rehabilitation (sloping of dumps and backfilling of old excavations, where feasible at the time) had been done concurrently with mining. There are, however, older excavations that were not backfilled. This can be ascribed to such factors as either being too distant from an overburden-producing open pit or that the excavation still had to be expanded in all directions. Such incompletely backfilled excavations are currently being made safe by sloping the sidewalls and supplying them with a safety berm around the perimeter.

The excavations that were not completely backfilled at the time were stabilised by way of partial backfilling of mining benches all along the perimeter of such an excavation – this also softens the visual impact.

Overburden dumps are being stabilised by sloping, contouring and seeding. The most feasible and stable dump geometry has been researched and defined by a specialist civil engineering consulting group. Seeding will commence with the onset of the next rainy season.

Rehabilitation at Hondeklip Bay is being conducted in accordance with the approved EMP as well as existing laws and regulations. A copy of the closure plan has been available at the mine offices for the past year (while the mine was still in operation). The community, as a stakeholder in all Trans Hex’s activities, is involved in informal monitoring. We value this information sharing and welcome any comments you might have concerning any of Trans Hex’s activities.

Should you require access to our closure plan, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Dr Phillip Schreuder
Group Manager: Mining Rights and Environment
28 November 2003
From:  Priscilla Magerman
At: 09.12.2003 00:00
Subject: Re: Rehabilitation of the Transhex mine in Hondeklipbaai

Thank you for your response Schalk.

I have taken the suggested route, but unfortunately the PCC can't help me in this regard. i have spoken to one member of the PCC and he refered me to Department of Minerals and Energy (DME). Apparently they are responsible for monitoring the process on the behalf of the community.

SOme of our community members have spoken to them since they have visited our town last week Wednesday doing just that: monitoring the process. They are fully aware of what our concerns are. Now we have received a copy of the closure plan from Trans Hex. And I must congratulate them. That was the fastest respond i have received in years. Of course that document was written for people with high qaulifications and we can't even make sense of it.

Basically is there someone out there who can help us understand what they are saying in their closure plan? One of the reasons we should understand it is that it is important for us to know what will happen with the mining area and not just in terms of rehabilitation.

So all dlist people we need your assistance and guidance.
From:  Henrico Strauss
At: 09.12.2003 00:00
Subject: Re: Rehabilitation of the Transhex mine in Hondeklipbaai

This message is about the closing of Oena mine in the Richtersveld National park.
From:  Henrico Strauss
At: 09.12.2003 00:00
Subject: Re: Rehabilitation of the Transhex mine in Hondeklipbaai

When the Director of Mineral and energey visit the Richtersveld, he immediately close the Oena mine.He was also not happy with the rehabilitation of Trans Hex.Anyway, who can be happy for their rehabilitation programm if there is poor rehabilitation been done.Like I suggest in my previous message, we must just pull our forces together and grab the bull by it horns.The mining companies can do a lot more for the communities but they did not.There is light in a very dark tunnel:We in the Richtersveld will become landowners and then we must take responsibility for our own land.It does not mean mining alone but all the other activities that take place on our land.Prisilla you was very happy that you receive the closure report from Hondeklip bay, I am still waiting for it more that six months.I would invite the mining companies who read D-List to respond on all our messages or give their point of view.Just only just, there might be issues that concerns both the community and the mining company.
From:  Henrico Strauss
At: 09.12.2003 00:00
Subject: Re: Rehabilitation of the Transhex mine in Hondeklipbaai

Hi Everybody

This is great that Trans Hex do some rehabilitation,but this is what we expect from them.I think we can look for some expert advice in regarding the dumpholes, especially after the Director close the Oena mine.As far as I know he was not happy with the rehabilitation of Trans Hex.Maybe we can contact him and see what he say about it.
From:  Lani Clough
At: 15.01.2004 00:00
Subject: Transhex's Coporate Social Responsibility

Note: I am attaching this same message as a file to this post in case there are any problems with the post size!


I recently spent some time in Hondeklipbaai at their Coast Care site, which is quite nice. While I was there, I was able to see some of the mining sites prepared for closure. Hondeklipbaai is a beautiful area and it is such a shame how the mining has devastated the surrounding ecosystem. The focus of my degree in University was landscape restoration and I was shocked to see the damage left from the site. The mining holes are deep and steep the sand piles are equally steep and high. As Hondeklipbaai is near the coast, this area is susceptible to wind erosion, causing the sand to be blown from one area to the next, quite quickly. The piles are too steep for any seed to have the ability to root without toppling over and uprooting itself. Furthermore, there is a positive feedback cycle that exists between the lack of vegetation and the wind. Vegetation can be used as a cover to protect areas from wind erosion, and without any vegetation, the sand can be blown in any direction. This makes it even harder for a seed to survive, for the wind will constantly be suffocating it with sand. This stops the growth of the pile’s protective vegetative cover and allows more wind erosion to take place, less seeds to grow. The cycle just continues repeating itself. The lack of water along with extreme temperatures and offshore winds makes this a very harsh climate. In harsh climates, all of the species have to be very well adapted, creating a fragility of the environment to major disturbances. Therefore, it didn’t surprise me to see that all of the piles were without vegetation. With all of these factors involved, I just can’t imagine that any natural rehabilitation of the landscape will happen in the near future without human intervention and physical land restoration.

I believe that as the mines exorbitantly benefited from this area for over 30 years that they have a social responsibility to rehabilitate the land to as close to its natural form as possible. Furthermore, as they also benefited from the local people in the area, I believethey should give back to them and include them in the restoration process, by way of employment. This goes back to a concept that has already been mentioned on DLIST, Corporate Social Responsibility. The mines have a social responsibility to give back to the local communities by cleaning up the natural ecosystem.

I also think that rehabilitation in the mines truly should happen as the mines are functioning, not after everything is depleted. Now, I understand that this is not the primary case here in Hondeklipbaai, but I’m sure that this exists in other places. For example, after they decide to mine in one hole, and move onto the next, they should fill up the old hole. Then, the area can restart the process of natural rehabilitation and the rehabilitation of the site will be much quicker. If the rehabilitation occurred at the same time as the mineral extraction, the corresponding profits would be more realistic. The companies would not have the large rehabilitation costs to deal with when the mines are not producing at the level they previously were. It frightens me to think that the companies are might go under, due to the large capital input needed for the restoration. The rehabilitation costs will then ultimately fall on the local companies and the taxpayers of South Africa. This has happened quite a few times in the United States, and I’m not sure if it works the same way here, especially since Transhex and Alexkor are companies owned by the government of South Africa. Can anyone enlighten me on this?

It just seems more sustainable to me to deal with the mess that they are making at the time, instead of letting it accrue for 40 years and then trying to take care of it, it just won’t work. It’s no wonder to me that the mines don’t want to take any responsibility for what they have created. The way I feel is, they came in, took what they needed, made a lot of profit from it. So they should be responsible and give back to the area that they took from by restoring it to its natural condition and not leaving the local people unskilled and jobless.
From:  Liz Metcalfe
At: 17.01.2004 00:00
Subject: Re: Transhex's Coporate Social Responsibility

I would also like to re-iterate the points made by Lani Clough about the responsibility of mines to restore the land after closure.

Having also recently visited the charming settlement of Hondeklip Bay, I was struck by the major alteration of the landscape, resulting from the dumping of waste earth from diamond extraction. The most striking examples can be seen on the drive from the N7 towards Hondeklip Bay. It would not be an exaggeration to call these slag heaps ‘hills’, since their size and extent are vast. As Lani comments, the size and steepness does indeed inhibit the growth of vegetation on these man-made dunes, therefore, making the process of natural rehabilitation unlikely within reasonable timescales. That is to say that without some form of rehabilitation (e.g. reduction of slope angle), the area is degraded and represents an area of economic loss to the local people. Is this thought considered by the mining company when they are taking all the profits, without giving anything back to the community (concept of Tragedy of the Commons)? It appears not.

Hondeklip Bay epitomizes another example of the mentality connected to mining, where the local people are left to deal with all the negative impacts associated with mining, without receiving any of the benefits. The mining companies don’t seem to understand that the local people aren’t asking for money. They just asking not to have to pay for something they haven’t received.

Since diamond extractors can pretty much demand whatever prices they like, I do wonder why the costs of environmental and social rehabilitation aren’t institutionalised within the product. Therefore, it isn’t even the diamond extractors who pay the cost of rehabilitation, but those, at the end of the line, the consumer buying the product. Perhaps it already is, but the mining companies aren’t passing it on? I’d appreciate a comment about the economics of it all from someone that knows….
From:  Marie Hoadley
At: 17.01.2004 00:00
Subject: Closure

The issues around closure which have come to the fore in this discussion are critical. It is quite correct that closure should not be planned AT closure - rather, it should be something which is envisaged right from the start of a new operation, and something which the company should continually bear in mind in its planning, particularly when dealing with community issues. There are a number of really problematic closures in the region, and I know that there are also mining companies who are taking this phase of mining very seriously.

I have just completed a report for the ICMM/WB which bears the title of this discussion forum. As soon as the final version has been accepted, I will post it on this site. However, as it belongs to the WB and ICMM, I may not be able to do so, but I will be able to send it to individuals who request it. It deals with community development projects, but there is a strong emphasis on closure as the ultimate focus of all activities at a mine site.

The report is also insistent that communities take ownership of development projects. I am very happy to see that everyone involved in this particular closure has taken ownership of the problem.
From:  Priscilla Magerman
At: 21.01.2004 00:00
Subject: Re: Closure

"I am very happy to see that everyone involved in this particular closure has taken ownership of the problem."

That is really the thing bugging us. We haven't been taken forward with the process, maybe in form of municipality. That is like taking the easy way out. We all know all over our country municipalities are struggling to keep up with development in their areas and that their core business is providing service. Yet you find that mining companies use them as their 'community stakeholder" even when there are organisations in the towns that can make a meaningfull contribution.

With this closure plan of Trans Hex you can't really say that it was a participatory process, that is from the community's side. Some people on the street still does not know that there is such a plan.

This is a nice learning curve for other mining companies. Do take communities with you in every process releveant to them and your problems will become theirs. Remember, giving money is not always ther right way to do the right thing
From:  Marie Hoadley
At: 21.01.2004 00:00
Subject: Closure and community participation

Priscilla - you are quite right, of course. I meant that people are getting involved in the problem and doing something about it. The actual process of closure, I know, has been a very troubled one.

Your comments about community consultation, and who legitimately represents the community are very pertinent. A community is much more than just local government, although the latter should lead development in its locality. However, also as you state, LG's are constrained by budget and resources, and this is where development around mining operations becomes very important. (I am only talking about the minerals sector here) Development there must reflect the needs of the people, must be done in full participation with the community, must lead to sustainable livelihoods for the community AFTER mine closure. This involves much more than just infrastructure, but calls for building of social capital and networks, capacity buildings, skills enhancement and training, etc. Project management is also critical if projects are to be sustainable. Local government cannot take on the responsibility on its own.

It would be very good to do a case study of what happened in your case. What were the critical factors that allowed things to happen without full community consultation and awareness? These are the kind of questions which can be asked to provide guidance for future closure phases.
From:  Priscilla Magerman
At: 04.02.2008 09:21
Subject: Re: Community participation in mining development

Social responsibility: is it an idle idea?

Being cornered by mining houses we have first hand experiences of being taken for a cheap ride. Let me give you a bit of background info. Hondeklipbaai is situated in a rich area in terms of the minerals diamonds and to top it we have natural resources. Now this small impoverished community who rely mainly on projects from government to put food on the table because we have been riding the fools train for as long as the mines were there.

For my discussion I want to focus on the one mining house that has been working in Hondeklipbaai- Trans Hex. Trans Hex has operated for 30 years in and around Hondeklipbaai taking out the popular mineral diamonds. During their operation there they haven’t employed many inhabitants from the town. Most of their workforce came from surrounding communities. Their being there didn’t make much if any impact on the town development accept for a few job opportunities and of course a sight for sore eyes, those mining dumps.

Now a year and half after they have close operations in the town, packed their belongings in the search of a better place (they have taken their workers with them though), they are by law forced to implement a social plan. Ironic but true. After their departure and after doing practically nothing they are forced to uplift the town they have left for dead and for which they had a chance while in operation to make a difference to do so. But the poor people just don’t want to do it right. It seems like they will never learn that the short route aren’t always the best. Let me tell you how they are planning the implement their “”social plan”.

First of all there is no social plan on paper or if there is one it has never been under the eyes of the community. Firstly they appointed a consultant to deal with the issue. The consultant then came to the community to establish a forum especially for this ”social plan”. This is in a community who already has platforms established by government departments, they formed a new forum. Talking about starting a fire. Obviously and maybe they hope for it, this forum does not really understand their role and as it is when there is confusion within the community the power struggle start. So the consultant decided the town need to have their own economic development plan and they invited all the stakeholders involved in the town. Lets not forget this is the company who does not have a social plan on paper!!! So that’s been done. They start a rehab project where they pay people the same salary as the EPWP project for those who does not know that’s R40 per day. To top it they make people believe that they have to do fundraising every month in order for them to get paid. What happens is that those people always get their salary in the second week of every month. It results in them having to give their whole salary to the shops where they have bought food on credit. After a year they never managed to pay the people on time, pitiful. I would believe that since they would have to budget for this social plan that there would be money readily available. How is it then that they have to fundraise every month? How is it that people get paid the minimum for hard labour? And through it all they want us to be grateful!! I am sorry but you have taken millions and millions of rands worth of diamonds from our town do not expect met to be grateful for your pitiful pocket money.

It is not the end though. They have gone and established a trust with a forum that has broken up. More then half of the forum has either resigned or decided to just stay away. The forum does not work with the government platforms and still they do not understand their role and yet Trans Hex believe that they are talking to the community. Is it a matter of being comfortable with the situations of just plain laziness or unwillingness to handle the situation.

Top of all this there are old mining dumps that can be reworked again. I have heard for a reliable source that the council has asked trans hex that the community should be granted the chance to work it. Their response was that they want people who has the machinery to work it. Now starting any day for the past year a company from Springbok will work the dumps. But listen here, they don’t have machinery, in fact they are looking for and as I have heard secured sponsorship now to start work. My question is: what is the difference? They do not have machinery also. Well as part of the deal trans hex had to nominate someone to work on their behalf and who do they nominate? Not any of their workers from hondeklipbaai who does not have a job. No they leave the town again, clearly thinking that the hondeklipbaai people cannot do it. While there are a lot of people who have previously worked in mines and they are unemployed now. Trans hex will tell you but there are 10 woman from hondeklipbaai who will also work in the mine and the trust will get a percentage of upbringings from the mine. And I will again ask, do you really want to be grateful? Sorry not today, because those ladies will do all the hard work and just earn a salary.

They will tell you that with other mining houses they invest a large amount into a trust for development in the area. I will tell you that hondeklipbaai is not on the list of the communities who can benefit from this trust. We have to struggle to get money from it.

Trans hex you need to realize that we know our rights we know where to talk about them and we can see what you are doing. Start making a difference if you really want to. Or forget your wants, lawfully you do not have much choice. If I can make a suggestion, fire the consultant, go the community again, unbind the forum show us what your social plan look like and give us your budget and try to make lasting difference. Like invest in the youth and their education. Help us be ready for the opportunities that will hit our town soon. And please do not tell me about all the small things you have done, that’s just it – small. You did not go for small when you took out the diamonds and we will not be forgotten that easily
From:  Charles Dlova
At: 06.02.2008 11:40
Subject: Re: Community participation in mining development

You need to get everybody from victim mode into a frame of mind whereby you are going to drive all developmental and investment processes in your area. After which I then think you should bring everybody to form a developmental agency that will formulate policy with regards to future investment in the area. Forming a utility company will be ideal, because it has a board that can be used to involve different stakeholders in the area eg it can then keep a running database of all the skills complement in the area. It can even lobby government as to your requirement with regard to the above. This is just a suggestion but I can send you more details if you would like to take this route because I think you already have an idea of what needs to happen but you most probably need the involvement of all the stakeholders and a formal structure to do this.

Priscilla Magerman <priscillam@sanparks.org> wrote:
Social responsibility: is it an idle idea?

Being cornered by mining houses we have first hand experiences of being taken for a cheap ride. Let me give you a bit of background info. Hondeklipbaai is situated in a rich area in terms of the minerals diamonds and to top it we have natural resources. Now this small impoverished community who rely mainly on projects from government to put food on the table because we have been riding the fools train for as long as the mines were there.

For my discussion I want to focus on the one mining house that has been working in Hondeklipbaai- Trans Hex. Trans Hex has operated for 30 years in and around Hondeklipbaai taking out the popular mineral diamonds. During their operation there they haven’t employed many inhabitants from the town. Most of their workforce came from surrounding communities. Their being there didn’t make much if any impact on the town development accept for a few job opportunities and of course a sight for sore eyes, those mining dumps.

Now a year and half after they have close operations in the town, packed their belongings in the search of a better place (they have taken their workers with them though), they are by law forced to implement a social plan. Ironic but true. After their departure and after doing practically nothing they are forced to uplift the town they have left for dead and for which they had a chance while in operation to make a difference to do so. But the poor people just don’t want to do it right. It seems like they will never learn that the short route aren’t always the best. Let me tell you how they are planning the implement their “”social plan”.

First of all there is no social plan on paper or if there is one it has never been under the eyes of the community. Firstly they appointed a consultant to deal with the issue. The consultant then came to the community to establish a forum especially for this ”social plan”. This is in a community who already has platforms established by government departments, they formed a new forum. Talking about starting a fire. Obviously and maybe they hope for it, this forum does not really understand their role and as it is when there is confusion within the community the power struggle start. So the consultant decided the town need to have their own economic development plan and they invited all the stakeholders involved in the town. Lets not forget this is the company who does not have a social plan on paper!!! So that’s been done. They start a rehab project where they pay people the same salary as the EPWP project for those who does not know that’s R40 per day. To top it they make
people believe that they have to do fundraising every month in order for them to get paid. What happens is that those people always get their salary in the second week of every month. It results in them having to give their whole salary to the shops where they have bought food on credit. After a year they never managed to pay the people on time, pitiful. I would believe that since they would have to budget for this social plan that there would be money readily available. How is it then that they have to fundraise every month? How is it that people get paid the minimum for hard labour? And through it all they want us to be grateful!! I am sorry but you have taken millions and millions of rands worth of diamonds from our town do not expect met to be grateful for your pitiful pocket money.

It is not the end though. They have gone and established a trust with a forum that has broken up. More then half of the forum has either resigned or decided to just stay away. The forum does not work with the government platforms and still they do not understand their role and yet Trans Hex believe that they are talking to the community. Is it a matter of being comfortable with the situations of just plain laziness or unwillingness to handle the situation.

Top of all this there are old mining dumps that can be reworked again. I have heard for a reliable source that the council has asked trans hex that the community should be granted the chance to work it. Their response was that they want people who has the machinery to work it. Now starting any day for the past year a company from Springbok will work the dumps. But listen here, they don’t have machinery, in fact they are looking for and as I have heard secured sponsorship now to start work. My question is: what is the difference? They do not have machinery also. Well as part of the deal trans hex had to nominate someone to work on their behalf and who do they nominate? Not any of their workers from hondeklipbaai who does not have a job. No they leave the town again, clearly thinking that the hondeklipbaai people cannot do it. While there are a lot of people who have previously worked in mines and they are unemployed now. Trans hex will tell you but there are 10 woman from
hondeklipbaai who will also work in the mine and the trust will get a percentage of upbringings from the mine. And I will again ask, do you really want to be grateful? Sorry not today, because those ladies will do all the hard work and just earn a salary.

They will tell you that with other mining houses they invest a large amount into a trust for development in the area. I will tell you that hondeklipbaai is not on the list of the communities who can benefit from this trust. We have to struggle to get money from it.

Trans hex you need to realize that we know our rights we know where to talk about them and we can see what you are doing. Start making a difference if you really want to. Or forget your wants, lawfully you do not have much choice. If I can make a suggestion, fire the consultant, go the community again, unbind the forum show us what your social plan look like and give us your budget and try to make lasting difference. Like invest in the youth and their education. Help us be ready for the opportunities that will hit our town soon. And please do not tell me about all the small things you have done, that’s just it – small. You did not go for small when you took out the diamonds and we will not be forgotten that easily